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PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:52 am 
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I have asked a respected leader in the organic lawn field who has a correspondence coarse and holds seminars,one which I attended,this question: tell me how pre-emerges harm people,pets or the soil. The reason I ask this is because in Memphis it is a challenge to prevent weeds without chemical pre-emerges.Corn gluten is expensive and from personal experience on my own yard is not so effective. The second reason is no one has yet to give a sound answer that synthetic pre-emerges harm as say 2-4d.The two times I has asked they go to the dangers of post-emerge chemicals.
Until I see a answer backed up by research to prove the point,I would use synthetic preM with compost and organic fertilizers.
Thank You


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 2:16 am 
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Location: Denton, Texas
Just read the label and decide if you want it in your child's mouth, or if you want your kid rolling in the grass. I guess the choice is yours. If you need any information on it, then call your local poison control hotline.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 4:17 pm 
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Poor answer. I am for organic but it is puzzling to me that no one dares to answer with any substance where pre-emerges are harmful to the soil,people or pets. I am surprised that organic organizations allow the use of pyrethrins. Don't argue that they don't. I would name the one I am accredited with but I won't.
I use Pendulum and Barricade. Your two year old can crawl on the grass after it drys with no proven harmful effects. If you want to blow steam otherwise then SHOW ME THE RESEARCH.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 1:46 am 
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Here is the "research" from the Helena Chemical Corp. data sheet on pendimethalin. EFFECTS OF EXPOSURE - Swallowing: harmful if swallowed. Skin Absorbtions: irritates skin and cause dermatitis. Inhalation: may cause headache, dizziness, anesthesia, drowsiness, UNCONSCIOUSNESS, and other CNS effects including DEATH. Severe pulmonary injury may occur if aspirated. ETHYLENE DICHLORIDE - Carcenogen

This is just 1 of a thousand sources for your "research" I found in just 20 seconds. And yes you are right about pyrethrins, they are toxic too.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 2:21 am 
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Pendulum is banned in Sweden (and all of Europe soon), and Barricade was banned in all of Europe in 2003.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 1:08 pm 
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Let me know if you want the lab test results from the EPA using lab rats in thier research. It is all public for you to see, this stuff is toxic.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 2:34 pm 
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Thanks dirtface. I will take what you given and look into it. You know how labels are,they have to protect themselves.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 8:44 pm 
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Location: Denton, Texas
:wink:


Last edited by Dirt Face on Fri Sep 11, 2009 11:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 7:07 pm 
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Location: San Antonio,TEXAS
I love it when people come to "non-scholastic" type forums demanding research. It is especially awkward when they come to an organic forum asking for research on chemicals. Personally I don't collect that type of stuff. I do organic fertilizer and other stuff simply because they work for me. I don't need a mound of research to look outside and see that my grass is the greenest on the block...and the most alive on the block - San Antonio's drought started in Sept 2007 and continues.

The weed challenge is everywhere Alanb. Memphis is not special. If you want to get rid of your weeds, follow good cultural practices. Every lawn forum on the Internet has people writing in to say, and I try to quote, "My lawn has never looked better since I started watering and mowing right." Neither of these two things costs you more than watering and mowing wrong. You don't need preemergents if you are taking proper care. Whether you are using synthetic fertilizer or organic, it has everything to do with care, not amendments.

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Dirt Doctor Lawns Forum


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 2:29 pm 
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Location: Frisco, Tejas
I do understand his frustration. The fact is that there are chemicals that do a terrific job when good, sound organic practices have failed. (Example: Sedgehammer works like a charm on nutsedge, it also scares the living sh1t out of me and I'd rather take on Jason Vorhees).

The "do you want this c*** in your kid's mouth" is a sound argument. Also, step on a clove of garlic for ten minutes and check your breath. That one scared me.

When I first went organic I got very annoyed with the 'politically organic' when I wanted to understand. I'm pragmatic, I want to know things like what is a normal amount of arsenic in the soil and how much would selective MSMA application increase it.

Over time, I've gotten more and more organic. I really don't know which chemicals, or combination of chemicals, causes cancer.

I do know that I eat lots of fresh, raw organic food, I work out, I run, I bike, I swim... and in my 39th year this summer I got to experience the joy of having a PET scan, a brain scan, a this scan, a that scan and some very painful surgery. I have an oncologist, yippee for me.

So to the original poster I'd say this - I'm like you, I like to have solid, measurable data before I make a decision and I like to know what the ramifications are. On a lot of the products in the garden aisle, in our food supply, in our water supply... well, the fact is I don't think anyone has a real good handle on the cumulative effects of all that c***.

The organic community is a big tent with all kinds of people in it. I'm a weird one - a composting, natural gardening, perfect yard having, organic food eating, gun-toting, right wingtip conservative leaning type.

I'll tell you this though, I know that CGM is probably OK. I know Chicken sh-t smells bad, greens good. I know molasses will heat my compost beyond the threshold for weed seeds. I also know that cancer is scary. It hurts like hell to get rid of it and having kicked the hell out of it this summer I am doing everything conceivable to do NOTHING to help it make a comeback in the future.

We all have our reasons, and some of us (raising hand) are probably a little irrational about why we disdain chemicals in any amount but at the end of the day, why take the chance?

Oh, and FWIW I had terrible nutsedge and crabgrass, broadleaf weeds and hardly any grass when we bought our house two years ago. After two truckloads of good soil, two years of a solid program and a LOT of time on my butt pulling weeds and tossing them into a bucket my lawn is a fine carpet of weed free Bermuda grass (well, rye for the winter). Sitting on your butt with the ipod going pulling weeds is enjoyable - make it your think time and leave the chemicals on the shelf just in case.

Oh yeah - and if you hate pulling weeds it beats hell out of having a lymph node yanked out TRUST ME, the whole yanked out lymph node experience is very very high on the 'things that really suck' list. I was sold on natural before cancer, after cancer I'm kinda religious about it - but hopefully not preachy.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 2:33 pm 
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Location: Frisco, Tejas
Oh, by the way...

Once your lawn goes dormant for the winter, go to lowes for a gallon of vinegar (acetic acid) in their organic aisle. Spray that on the weeds and crappy grasses that emerge while the lawn is dormant on a sunny day and do that every week or so til it is time for the lawn to come back - you will cut a lot of the problem out and if you get them BEFORE they go to seed it will get easier each year.


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