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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 11:46 am 
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Location: San Antonio,TEXAS
I have about 3 acreas of bermuda grass by devine texas in heavy sand. I would like to replace with native grasses and bunch grasees to improve quail habitat.
Is their anything besides roundup that would work?
Also how can i control small mesquite multiy branch trees.
rick


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 1:03 pm 
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Just start using organic techniques and products and the native grasses will return. Then you don't the expense and toxicity of Roundup. You can plant new native grass seed but it won't do much good until biological activity has been established. Aerating with somethng like the Airway or ripping will also speed up the process.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 5:10 pm 
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Location: San Antonio,TEXAS
what is airway or ripping? sorry new to all this.
rick

how bad is roundup?


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 2:32 am 
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Location: Red Oak,TEXAS
Dear Rick,

We use Roundup around here on Roundup-ready crops (corn, soybeans), but it is kinda tough on dirt-germs and really requires dirt replenishment (compost tea, etc.) after each use - trying to get away from it by organically building the soil. Have to something in the meantime, however.

Aerway is a implement, generally pulled by a tractor, that penetrates and aerates the soil - mostly used on pasture or grassland to open up the soil ( www.aerway.com ). An Aerway has a platform upon it to add weight to allow the special toothed coulters to penetrate the soil. It is available in a variety of widths. Requires some horsepower to pull.

With respect to "ripping": Performed by another implement: a ripper or subsoiler. It consists of one or more teeth an inch wide by 24" or more long. REALLY tears up the dirt. But it is used primarily for breaking up hardpan, generally 12-to-18" below the surface of the ground. To be effective, this operation needs to be performed when the dirt is bone-dry, in order to shatter the hardpan. Hardpan is a sub-surface layer of fine colloidial particles that effectively serves to seal off the dirt above it from the dirt below it. It is generally 1-2" thick. If it is ripped while it is still moist, it will re-seal itself and the effort is to little avail. The horsepower required to pull the implement will vary with the type of dirt you have. We have black gumbo, here. It turns to granite when it dries out (when the best time is to rip).

You need to determine if you indeed do need to rip, as this will largely depend upon the sort of soil you have. You can determine this by digging down a couple of feet; stick a knife into the side of the bottom of the hole and pull up. If you hit a point where the knife won't pull, you've hit the bottom of the hardpan (if it exists).

A neighbor asked me to come over and auger some 9" holes for fence-posts. We got down about a foot and the auger stalled out. He had to get on top of the post-hole-digger and jump and wiggle about in order to get enough pressure on the auger to penetrate, after awhile, his hardpan. I was amazed at how hard it can really be...

Hardpan, by the way, can be highly localized. Some of the holes we poked were not a problem at all - took 30 seconds to drill. Others took at least 15 minutes to do with him on top of the digger... All were dug to a depth of three feet.

We have a JD 4430 (125 Hp, I think), with singles on the back and 800# weights on the front so that I don't spend most of my time looking at blue sky anymore, here (a problem when pulling a five-bottom moldboard). Howard and I have had several discussions concerning till versus no-till - I have results (though maybe not economics) to prove my point... Have been looking for a three-shank ripper, expecting to have to take off two shanks just to be able to move. Our hardpan is at about 20" down - would have to sink the shank(s) all the way.

The importance of breaking the hardpan is to allow water to penetrate the subsoil, thus minimizing runoff (and increasing storage) and providing more available water to the plants... It also provides a conduit for the plant roots to extend themselves (the roots generally cannot penetrate hardpan).

The problem is that most used rippers available have seven to 13 shanks -any of which would require a whole lot more tractor than I have...

Suggest that you subscribe to FastLine - a monthly that advertises new and used farm equipment. Educational, at the very least. Check out www.fastline.com .

Remember, it takes the same equipment to work 30 acres as it does to work 3,000.....................

Money had better not be an issue...

Sorry if a lot of this is stuff that you already know, but nobody told me any of this, years ago.... No need for you to waste a lot of time and money, like I did......

Suggest that you consider AcresUSA - another monthly (Howard turned me on to this). Go to their web-sight, www.acresusa.com , then go to reprints, then look up an article styled, "Digging Deep" (at least, that is the headline of the reprint I printed out). It gives considerable detail concerning hardpan.

Hope that some of this is of at least a little benefit to you...........

P.S., Am amazed that you are annoyed by bermudagrass. Just seeded $10/lb ($40/ac). exceedingly aggressive hybrid, here, for the animals. Expect to bale a lot of it and sell some. Suggest you check around and see if you can get someone to come in and cut and bale - then sell it to the rubes. A couple of months ago, I had to buy 19 1,650# round bales @ $87.10/ea. for the animals.... we had to start buying hay back last July - local supplies ran out in October.

RE: Mesquite - lots o' luck - we always had to use the most Draconian methods possible to get rid of it...........


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 8:17 am 
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Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2006 9:12 am
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Location: San Antonio,TEXAS
thanks for info.
My soil is very sandy to about 4 feet,where there is small layer of clay.
I will test for hard pan.

I may have to use round up to kill bermuda and seed with native grasses.I had the same pasture shreded then disked.Then i planted various deer food plots. Very few plants came up.[no rain].Now the field has more costal than before,or it looks that way.

rick

ps I am tring to improve ranch for wild life. If i can convert all my bermuda pastures to native bunch grasses it would help the quail population.


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PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2006 8:59 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 7:44 pm
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Location: Red Oak,TEXAS
Dear Rick,

O.K., now I understand what you are trying to achieve. Therefore, disregard pretty much everything I said.

Ripping, plowing, etc. will not get rid of the bermudagrass - tillage just makes it mad then it comes back in spades. You will have to poison it. You have two options (I think):

1. Roundup. Pay close attention to dilution and application rates. I don't use it where I am concerned if anything grows back or not. My neigbor applies it to the field with a sophisticated spray rig that fairly precisely meters the application rate.

Think that it might be kinda tough on the dirt, though - especially when trying to do native grasses.

2. Vinegar - 10 or 20% RTU. Dirt friendly. Do not know if it kills the roots, however. There has to be more info on this web-site, someplace on this.

Suggest you thoroughly investigate this option before you go nuclear (Option 1).

As you know, you have rather different issues with sand than we do up here (gumbo).

Cordially,

Frank


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 Post subject: burmuda
PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 10:45 am 
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Remember every time you use round up or other toxic chemical some one will probably die or be diagnosed with cancer. When you use pesticides some one will get breast or prostate cancer and some more boys will have sexual deformaties. Plastics also contribute to this birth defect. Teenage pregnancy is going down because of the penal and testicle birth defects.
Sorry for the lecture but we have to stop killing ourselves and our children. Remember when a child or adult dies of cancer it is not God's will, it is man using toxic chemicals to destroy the human race.
Howard was right about returning to fertility but 20% vinegar works very well.
I also learned last year from Joe Francis - I interviewed him a few months before he died - that a chisel plow is your best friend. I bought one, but with the drought I ripped up chuncks and had to use a disk the try and level it, but this is the best year I have had for grass in 8 years. It allows moisture to go below the hard pan and put air in the soil with out turning anything over. A moldboard plow is considered to be the worst device used by ag from the beginnming of time. Check the book "The Plowman's Folly" by WilliamFalkner
Robert D bard
Dr Bob the Health Builder


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 Post subject: round up
PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 12:44 pm 
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Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2006 9:12 am
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Location: San Antonio,TEXAS
I read that round up binds to soil and it doent hurt anything?

can you explain to me what is carcinogenic about round up.
I am not familar with possible mechanism ,or what it does to our body.
I will try vinger first,i dont trust the chemical companies.

does roundup hurt the wildlife quail or deer?


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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2006 8:47 am 
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Location: McKinney,TEXAS
Go to the home page of this website, search for roundup, and see the research Howard has brought to our attention.
Tony M


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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2006 12:14 pm 
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Location: terrell,TEXAS
The active ingredient in Roundup is not very toxic, but the inert ingredients are according to a study, I read but can't recall which Texas university it was that did it.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 8:50 pm 
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I'm always hearing how the bermuda farmers have to use all these exotic chemical sprays to keep the natives out? Why is your area different?

You might consider fencing off the 3 acres into 15 very small pastures and running some goats or chickens over it.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 4:33 am 
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Location: McKinney,TX
Wow - you are missing the point. If you want natural land with native grasses, then work with nature. DO NOT SPRAY ROUND-UP. It WILL have toxic effects for you and your family and to wildlife. Remember that chemcials combine and create other toxins that are much worse than each individual chemical by itself. Sorry for the lecture, but please rethink what you are doing.

So what does it mean to work with nature. Patience is very important. If bermuda is what is growing, then you won't get rid of it long term by spraying Round-Up, but you will further damage your land. With this drought, if you spray Round-Up you will kill off everything and without any moisture, you will have some dead ugly land.

You have an ideal situation to generate some excellent organic information. Section off some test areas as suggested and try a different experiment on each - aeration, vinegar, various organic amendments, reseeding with native grasses, chickens (which are more work but can be a source of excellent quality eggs), etc. Have fun with it and make it a learning expecience and share your results with all of us. I know you will be MUCH happier with the outcome.

My neighbor was not happy with his fields last year (he wanted beautiful pasture for his horse and was envious of our fields). He asked me what to do and then decided that the best choice was to spray Round-Up and reseed (he didn't like my organic options of making his soil healthier). So that is what he did. None of the seeds came up with the drought and the poor quality of his soil but some nasty weeds developed. This year it really looks terrible but our fields are green and beautiful again even though we are having a severe drought. You WILL not be successful with your plan to create a native wild-life area by spraying Round-Up.

Be patient, do more research, and don't do more damage to our fragile planet.

Thank you for letting me share my thoughts.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 1:35 pm 
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Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2006 9:12 am
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Location: San Antonio,TEXAS
thanks for all your help, i will not spray round up. I wonder if i take very small areas cover them with tarp ,kill the grass then reseed that area.
This may give the native grasses a starting point.


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