Medina Soil Activator and Garrett Juice

[eggdog]

oops! I meant to say:
Does anyone know if Medina Soil Activator and Garrett Juice are the same thing? If not, do they produce the same results if applied to soil?

[CaptainCompostAL]

No they are totally different products.

Soil activators are normally biostimulants made from beneficial bacteria and/or fungi for soil building. Just like aerated teas are highly empowered by aerobic microbes.

Garrett juice is basically a powerrful fertilizer/soil amendment product, with no living aerobic microbes in it. It's just like commercial bottled fish emulsion or seaweed extracts.

No living aerobic microbes can grow inside of a totally closed bottle. If it did, it work explode on the shelves! Some microbes like fungi, can go to sleep or become dormant under anaerobic conditions, like inside a totally closed container.

[Soil Secrets]

In this forum is was said that a product cannot have beneficial aerobic microbes if placed in a sealed container, therefore Garret Juice was not the same kind of product as Medina. Is not Medina in a sealed container? In truth, aerobic bacterial along with other beneficial soil microbes can be treated by professional microbiologists so the microbes can tolerate the anaerobic enviroment of a sealed container. On another note, the method of propagating and mutliplying beneficial soil microbes is an exact science done in clean room growth chambers. Trying to do the same thing in a compost tea brewer is bad science, with poor at best quality control. I employ a team of PhD Soil Scientists and Microbiologists who do this for Soil Remediation projects all over the world. We do this for a living!

[Kathe Kitchens]

With all due respect, there are now products on the shelves that contain microbes that have been "put to sleep". Earthworm is one, and there are others. Compost teas have materials in them that have been broken down so they are more available to the soil when applied; home brewed aerated teas are more effective more quickly because they don't have to "wake up" the microbes - they're already there. Growing microbe colonies in a laboratory is certainly not the only way to make it hapPen. It happens out in nature daily; they don't need a scientist to create the conditions for them to exist. Home brewed aerated compost tea is the same, simply less exact.

Medina soil activator stimulates the growth and multiplication of microbes in the soil already, providing micronutrients and encouraging conditions so that they multiply more rapidly and in turn break down fertilizers or organic matter so that it is available to living plants more quickly. So no, it doesn't have microbes in it, it just nourishes them directly. Check their website. MedinaAg.com

Garrett Juice has compost tea, seaweed extract, cider vinegar and molasses. Check the ingredients right here on this website. It is a great foliar feed or liquid fertilizer. That's the difference.

Using Medina Soil Activator WITH Garrett Juice would be fine. However, spreading a good dry organic fertilizer and watering it in with Medina Soil Activator or Medina Plus is great. Foliar feeding with Garrett Juice on top of that is DYNAMITE! Try it.

Kathe :D

[Soil Secrets]

I'm familiar with Earthworm and have it in my Reference Library. If the product has changed in the past year and you have evidence from a commercial lab such BBC in Tempe Arizona to back up the claim of the aerobic microbes being in stasis (put to sleep as you word it). I will apologize and congratulate the manufacture. I have no doubt that compost tea or worm compost casting teas have some nutrient value. After all, you are leaching from the mother material any water soluble component into the capture tank. But as a microbe inoculant with exact controls over the quality, quantity and specificity it is a questionable method at best.

[Tony M]

Soil Secrets-
I'm not a scientist but have respect for those who are. Welcome to the forum.
Help me understand something. My buddy brews aerated compost tea at his office/warehouse, take samples and overnights them to Elaine Ingham at http://www.soilfoodweb.com/, and she send back a report with the microbe count, etc. Given what you said above, what am I missing?
Tony M

[Soil Secrets]

Perhaps my paper on Compost tea may help answer your questions. Contact me directly and I will send the paper to you. My biggest concern about the method of analysis and reporting done on such materials is that the quantifying of the microbes is done poorly in an attempt to keep it affordable. The reports that are being generated by the labs are not telling you the actual bacteria that are in the products, just the count/colony forming units and diversity. Well, what if you have a compost that is full of nasty unhealthy bacteria? Then your compost tea is going to be full of unhealthy bacteria. Many of the really dangerous bacteria are Facultative Anaerobes which can live just fine in an aerobic tea brewer. And if you put molasses in with the brew, you are going to encourage these bad boys making a bad situation even worse. Finally, I prefer BBC Labs out of Tempe Arizona. You can request more detailed analysis from them but be prepared for the added expense.

[gnalekim]

Soil Sience - How can I find out more of what your talking about.
My wife is a horticulture tech. and encourages me in my composting but she has no time for tea's, she just tells me not to bother. She's explained her reasoning but it's over my head. I think she's afraid of things getting out of control.

[Mr. Clean]

I am interested in reading more from Soil Secrets.

As for Medina and Medina Plus (I have not tried the Hasta Gro product), there is no bigger waste of money, IME. I gave them ample opportunity over several years and many gallons. What about truth in advertising? I no longer have one of the bottles (the greatest contribution Medina made to my landscape(s) was providing a mixing bottle for dry humate and water), but I recall reading at the time...and what promises were made? IIRC, none. Hey, if you don't promise anything tangible, consumers can't really complain. :wink:
Go and read their website.
Quote: It loosesn and mellows compacted soils I liked that one in particular.
Quote: 20 Million Acres of Proven Perfomance Click the link to read about this claim.
What it's not:
Quote: ...not an enzyme. It is not a bacterium, not a living organism.
What it is:
Quote: ...a health food drink for microbes.
Quote: ...a highly developed biochemical respiratory process.
So is it a process or a product?

For those who make claims of Medina's successes. Are these quantifiable results?

[Kathe Kitchens]

Mr. C -
Yes, I find Medina SA and Medina Plus effective. Using them alone I have seen improvement in soil, and the plants growing in it. So I'd say that makes it a no-brainer.

Not sure why you are picking apart their labels, and realize that we must protect the organic/sustainable program from charlatans. However you must remember that just because a university or institute says a product is good, healthy or effective, doesn't make it so. What makes it so is personal experience. So mine says yes, these products work.

Also please remember that unlike huge corporations, all product manufacturers don't have $25,000 to $50,000 to fully register their products so their labels must read almost anecdotally. The rest has to come from users. Personal experience and references from others are key.

Kathe

Kathe

[Soil Secrets]

Interesting stuff on the Medina products. Not sure how to respond, but if it does not have Indigenous Beneficial Soil Microbes, does not have nutrients that can be guaranteed by analysis and labeled approved accordingly and does not have significant quantity of technical material like Humic Substances from extracted Humus or Humates. Then what does it have? The claims stated on this forum would be hard to justify in some states simply because of the more difficult labeling registration requirements. Texas is one of the easiest states to market products that are not directly plant nutrients as there is no registration if it is not categorized as a fertilizer. As I understand it, some of the Medina products have added an NPK into their liquids and are then marketed as fertilizers. On another interesting note, Humic acids are recognized as a plant nutrient in Texas but not in most other states. As a result, if you are making and selling a product and claim to have Humic Acids in the product, you are subject to regulation and must provide a minimum guaranteed analysis. I can spot a rogue product straight away, when they claim Humic Acid as an ingredient but the pH of the product and the microbial assays to do not correspond to the claim. There are a bunch of backdoor companies trying to make and sell wonder products with very poor science to back up their claims. I'm not willing to say the same is true concerning Medina as I have not tested or even seen products from that company.

[Mr. Clean]

Kathe Kitchens wrote: Mr. C -
Yes, I find Medina SA and Medina Plus effective. Using them alone I have seen improvement in soil, and the plants growing in it. So I'd say that makes it a no-brainer.


I'm scratching my head trying to figure out the point :?
Were plants not growing in those locations before? I have plants growing in dirt. Should I bag it and market it? They (Medina/Medina Plus) provided no noticeable improvement for my landscape. So you're right about it being a "no-brainer".

Kathe Kitchens wrote:
Not sure why you are picking apart their labels,

I'm not picking apart their labels. Just questioning whether they are skirting truth in advertising by not providing any promise of performance. I think from their own wording that it is fairly obvious that they make no commitment whatsover to the consumer.

Kathe Kitchens wrote:
...and realize that we must protect the organic/sustainable program from charlatans.


I agree. I think that the consumer (especially those new to organics) needs to be alerted to products that do nothing more than drain their wallets, all in the name of "organics". That was my personal experience with these products. When I have a product that does work for me. I like to share that information with "newbies" as well.

Kathe Kitchens wrote:
However you must remember that just because a university or institute says a product is good, healthy or effective, doesn't make it so.


I agree again. However, sometimes those studies are more conducted in a more controlled environment. As opposed to a "by golly my plants never looked better" response. I am not saying that tests cannot be skewed to a pre-determined conclusion. The same too goes for the non-scientific assertions.

Kathe Kitchens wrote:
What makes it so is personal experience. So mine says yes, these products work.


And my personal experience (as stated over multiple years - using many gallons) say no, they don't work. But work how you might ask, as again not too many (if any) claims are made by the company. I will say that the soil in my test areas were no looser or more mellow (what the heck does that mean anyway?) than before the numerous applications.

***Disclaimer ***

I don't sell or represent any organic product. I am an end user only.

[gnalekim]

This may be oversimplifying things but, an important point to keep in mind regarding reported results and claims based on personal experience - What is the condition of the soil or medium before treatment with anything. A good quality soil will benefit little from any additive. Conversely a poor soil may be beyond the capabilities of most treatments. I have a hard time sometimes with the notion that the same treatments can be used on all soils regardless of current condition or especially what you intend to grow.

[Dchall_San_Antonio]

Maybe I have something to contribute...not to clarify, but contribute.

Malcolm Beck, the guy who developed the process of bottling Garrett Juice, and Stuart Franke, the owner of Medina Ag products, have both spoken at the organic gardening meetings we used to have for a couple years. I have also visited with Beck at his bottling plant and seen how the compost tea is collected. Since there is no restriction on the words 'compost tea' I could put clear water in a bottle and call it compost tea. This is almost what is done at Garden-Ville. Malcolm has a trough made from 55-gallon drums sawed in half lengthwise and welded back together. The trough is on about a 15 degree slope with a spigot welded to the bottom of the lower end of the trough. The trough was filled with compost way back when this project first started and has not been touched since - with one exception. They found that the spigot used to clog with organic materials so they made a filter with greensand and volcanite at the spigot end. What they do is this: when he wants to bottle up some "compost tea," he fills the trough with water and lets it sit for a day. The next day he turns on the spigot and taps off the first few gallons to be recycled into the trough. Then the clear fluid is pulled off as the compost tea. Malcolm has tested the tea and found it has zero living microbes in it. His claim is that it contains enzymes. Malcolm says that this tea is the product that goes into the commercial Garrett Juice.

Franke has presented a fascinating slide show. Apparently the State of Texas wanted to find a way to remediate the land around oil wells where they were contaminated with salts. I don't know where the salts came from but they traditionally kill the soil "forever." Franke put together a demonstration for the state and showed that his product did allow native plants to regrow where he sprayed. I wish he could have given us the location but he said that still, many years later, the grass is still growing on his test plot and nowhere else in the area. The 'active ingredient' in Medina Soil Activator is magnesium based. It happens to be the same material used up north to deice the roads in the winter. It is also used up north to firm up dirt driveways. So I don't get that. It either softens the soil or it firms it up??? How?

My experience with Medina Soil Activator is that it did nothing. My experience with Earthworm was similar; however, the area I specifically wanted to use it on is regrowing now for the first time in 10 years. Nevertheless, I base my negative conclusion on the fact that I used it heavily on several problem areas and they are all unchanged and cannot be distinguished from the adjacent areas where I did not spray. So I'm attributing my success on the one area to something else I might have done - or to time alone.

I don't deny anyone their personal experience. Lord knows my personal experience differs a lot from other people's.

[goo0h]

CaptainCompostAL wrote: Garrett juice is basically a powerrful fertilizer/soil amendment product, with no living aerobic microbes in it. It's just like commercial bottled fish emulsion or seaweed extracts.

No living aerobic microbes can grow inside of a totally closed bottle. If it did, it work explode on the shelves! Some microbes like fungi, can go to sleep or become dormant under anaerobic conditions, like inside a totally closed container.
Just was browsing around at Calloways seeing what they're getting in, and found myself having a quiet chuckle to myself.

There were some jugs of Garrett Juice on the shelf with the growing number of organic products they're carrying. -- A bit over priced if you ask me, but at least word of the "organic way" is getting around. -- Anyway, I went to look for the price on the bottles and discovered they wobbled. Huh? The bottoms were all rounded. Indeed, the area around the handle of the gallon bottles was all puffed-out. I looked closely at the lid and noticed it didn't have that tiny little hole that I've seen in the past with this stuff. Sure enough, those darn bottles looked like they were fixin' to explode. Ha!

I immediately remembered this thread and had to get back and post my observations. Not very scientific mind you, but I thought it was interesting/amusing nonetheless....