step 1. followed the directions here precisely, including the orange oil. Sprayed weeds, young broadleafs went away, larger broadleafs look ill but bounced back, grasses seemed to like it after a couple of rough days.

step 2. after 3 days, decided that I had it wrong, redid the spraying being even more precise on the formulae. Same results, except that the grasses are even healthier.

step 3. Got a watering can, and DRENCHED the X!?^&@#*?%$. same results. I now have the healthiest grasses!

step 4. Bought Roundup. I now have the deadest grasses!

Scores: Vinegar 0, weeds 3
Roundup 1, weeds 0

Costs, Spent 3x as much on vinegar as I ultimately did on Roundup.

I'm sorry you didn't have better luck with the vinegar. We always have...

And it was 9-10% vinegar, with no dilution... right?
And a hot day... right?
And with large weeds, you gave up after 2 trys... why?

I am sorry the vinegar didn't work. But, a blow torch works even faster than 2 trys, works faster than Roundup, and is less toxic.

Large weeds, like crabgrass, and others like poa in spring, succumb to potasium bicarb, which you dust on when wet, in about 24 hours. And the St. Aug is left untouched.

I assume that by your comment on how much you spent on the vinegar you were using at least 10%, and perhaps even 20% vinegar. I will further assume that you did not dilute the vinegar with any water. If either of my assumptions are incorrect, that could be your problem.

I have a couple of thoughts. If the grass is/was Bermuda, I don't doubt for a minute that the grass came back. Because of the plant growth below the surface, Bermuda will require some physical removal to prevent regrowth. Other than that, I get very decent control on most weeds with the vinegar/orange oil solution. Poison Ivy, Virginia Creeper, and false garlic/onion being notable exceptions.

I wouldn't give up completely on the vinegar/orange oil spray based on this very limited experience.

To repeat:

1. I followed directions posted here on this web site.
2. I tried 3 (THREE) times.
3. Roundup needed ONE treatment, and cost less.

Did you cut off the uppermost growth and then spray with either 10 or 20% vinegar? If you did not do this part, then the vinegar was only partially effective. The way it works is to attack the cellular structure of the plant, and if you only spray the surface, then you are only impacting the surface cells, the plant has been damaged but can still photosynthesize. Now, cut the growth off a broadleaf weed, the largest you can find, and douse the plants open wounds with the vinegar and tell us what happens. When you do it this way the vinegar goes into the vascular structure of the plant, destroying both inner and outer cells. I bet you will be amazed with the results if you try this approach.

A neighbor tried the vinegar on my recommendation, too, with no luck as they forgot to cut off the upper growth and spray the wound. They asked me about it and I showed them how to apply it properly and did it the way I have stated above.

And now, they are convinced, hopefully you will be too.

read, and re read all the discussion. It appears that:
1. I did nothing wrong.
2. Round-up is much, much cheaper!

Round-Up might be cheaper (always seemed expensive to me years ago), but you are missing one very important point. It is toxic to everything on your property. It can eventually kill your trees, etc. and can get into the water supply. I guess it depends on where your priorities are?

I too am sorry the vinegar solutions did not work. I have not had much success with the begginnings of an organic program, but the alternatives are just not worth it. I have children, and dogs that would not be able to enjoy the yard without me worrying about them getting into a dangerous chemical. Have you read what it says on roundup? Have you read what it says on any chemical yard supplements? It says to keep out of reach of children and away from animals. How are you going to do that when you are putting it on the most available and accessible place in and around your home? No more chems for us, no worrys, and good exercise pulling weeds.

Hmmm I'm surprised tsterkel had trouble with the vinegar. Come to Plano and see my dead st augstine. I'm expanding my front beds. So I cut new area and bagged it then scalped and bagged it again (all to compost pile). Sprayed with 10% vinegar/orange oil/soap. Let die for 2 days then scalped area again (basically bagged dead material for compost pile) then sprayed with straight 20%. NO MORE grass. And wow that was only TWO attempts and I didn't have to resort to Toxic roundup. (I know it's tough to resist b/c almost every landscaper loves roundup....do they get a kick back?)

For certain types of weeds (bermuda, bindweed and dallas grass), I've not had much success using vinegar. I have tried repeatedly spraying. I've done the spraying both ways - without cutting it back first and after cutting it back - and I agree that it usually comes back. The only real success I've had with bermuda and dallas grass by using a spading fork or shovel to dig it out deep, breaking up the clods by hand and picking out the rhisomes. Also, it you can keep it totally unwatered, it will not grow very fast and you will have a better chance.

I wasted gallons of 20% vinegar (we bought a 55 gal drum) and orange oil to little effect. I wish I had know earlier and saved the money.
Not that vinegar doesn't work fine for many types of undesired plants.

I am a diehard organic gardner and think it is very important to avoid chemical solutions. But at the same time, I think it's important to admit when organic solutions like spraying with vinegar won't work reliably. I don't want to waste people's time and money on solutions that are unlikely to succeed. I hope that faced with the challenge of getting rid of bermuda, people will chose to dig it out or use a sod cutter (works pretty well) rather than use products like Round-up.

Marlyn

But at the same time, I think it's important to admit when organic solutions like spraying with vinegar won't work reliably. I don't want to waste people's time and money on solutions that are unlikely to succeed

I can't agree more! There is no better way to turn new converts away from ever attempting organics again than to encorage them to waste their time and money on methods or products which just don't work.

I'm not familiar with bindweed, but you are so right about Bermuda grass and Dalis grass, as being seemingly impervious to the effects of vinegar/orange oil/soap. I'll add some additional plants Virginia Creeper, False Garlic/Onion, and Poison Ivy. As you further stated, to rid yourself of Bermuda and Dalis, you've got to get your hands dirty and dig that stuff out.

Here is one of many reasons not to use RoundUp:

http://www.getipm.com/articles/letters/ ... ischer.htm

and calves born without eyes or without fully formed knee caps:
http://www.getipm.com/articles/glyphosate-roundup.htm

and more:
http://www.gene.ch/gentech/1997/8.96-5.97/msg00627.html

Marlyn's right, there are just times when good old elbow grease is the only organic solution. But vinegar works well for broadleaf weeds and other undesirable plants. Those rhizome anchored and deep rooted grassy weeks just have to be manually taken out. The thing is that Roundup doesn't permanently work on them either!

Best comment I've heard on this is the laughs from watching a Roundup commercial where these two guys "duel" with Roundup vs. another herbicide to kill ONE STINKING DANDELION. C'mon, people!
Walk your lazy self over there and pull that thing up by the roots!
Puh-leez!
Kathe

I second Kathe. It is good exercise to get up off the couch, walk over to the weed and apply a little manual labor by pulling it out then placing it in the compost pile. A little manual labor never hurt any one.