Hi Yes, vinegar is acetic. So then what's all the contriversy about? If 20% cut in half is 10%, why buy 20% at the prices being charged? If 10% is all that's required, why not buy the 9% at H-E-B for $1.99? What difference would 1% make? Now, I've also heard that 5% will kill the weeds. So, we're back to the original question. What is the BEST formula for killing weeds? Another thought. The "soap" is nothing more than a surfactant. Therefore, a drop or two should suffice. I've used 1 gal 5% vinegar, added 4 oz orange oil and 1/2 teaspoon soap and put it on weeds on an asphalt driveway. It does NOT work. I tried the same thing with the 9% and it DOES NOT work. So what does work? I have to go out there in this heat and use a weed eater to get those weeds that keep coming up through the asphalt. A lot of work! And as for the Subject - is there any significance between the so-called "natural" vinegar and the cheap store bought 5%? Is that not "natural"? If not, what is it? This whole thing is crazy!

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Morgan Bilbo, Organic is the Only Way! Guineas for defense!

Hi Yes, vinegar is acetic. So then what's all the contriversy about? If 20% cut in half is 10%, why buy 20% at the prices being charged? If 10% is all that's required, why not buy the 9% at H-E-B for $1.99? What difference would 1% make? Now, I've also heard that 5% will kill the weeds. So, we're back to the original question. What is the BEST formula for killing weeds? Another thought. The "soap" is nothing more than a surfactant. Therefore, a drop or two should suffice. I've used 1 gal 5% vinegar, added 4 oz orange oil and 1/2 teaspoon soap and put it on weeds on an asphalt driveway. It works poorly. I tried the same thing with the 9% and it is about the same. I do not see any difference between the 5 and 9. So what does work? I have to go out there in this heat and use a weed eater to get those weeds that keep coming up through the asphalt. A lot of work! And as for the Subject - is there any significance between the so-called "natural" vinegar and the cheap store bought 5%? Is that not "natural"? If not, what is it? This whole thing is crazy!

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Morgan Bilbo, Organic is the Only Way! Guineas for defense!

Hello All! I must apologize for the multiple messages. My computer had a glitch. The last one is correct. The 5% and the 9% mixes did seem to "brown out" some of the weeds, but not all. And the next day or so, they were all green again. I then went out with the weed eater and got rid of as many weeds as I could. But the weed eater uses the nylon cord and that nylon breaks off very easily. To do 120 ft of driveway used up a lot of nylon. And to find a steel cutter sounds like it would cut up the asphalt. It's just a lot of work to get rid of weeds. No wonder most folks use RoundUp. I refuse to do so. I will do the work necessary to get rid of the weeds.

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Morgan Bilbo, Organic is the Only Way! Guineas for defense!

The differences in these vinegars is the ratio of acid to fluid. Just as if you took any other acid and diluted it past a certain ratio, it wouldn't have the same effect. 5% vinegar just doesn't have enough acid to do the work. You have to have a strong enough concentrate for it to be acidic enough to work. Pickling vinegar is 10% because it has to be strong enough to break down the cells in the food you want to "cook". You can't use 5% vinegar and get a good result. 20% vinegar is stronger by ratio. If you use 20% vinegar, 1 oz. of concentrated orange oil and a drop of soap, you WILL kill those weeds. Remember it kills by burning off the greenery and eliminating photosynthesis so if the weeds have enough root system to regenerate they will, but a second application is usually enough to deplete their reserves and kill the plant. If you do it on a hot, sunny day it will accelerate the process to just a couple of hours. I hope this will help you get over your frustration. I agree, it's too darned hot to have to use a weedeater. And yes, there is a difference between natural vinegar and synthetic, same as permethrin and pyrethrin; one is created by artificially combining chemicals to mimic the natural product, the other is created by natural processes.

Vinegar is acetic acid. There is no difference between "natural" vinegar and the $1.99 variety of 90 Grain (9%, Pickling Vinegar) bought at HEB when the mechanism you are using is the acid to kill the plant.

The soap is a surfactant to keep the acid (vinegar) in place long enough to kill (burn) the vegetation showing above the surface. It will be effective more quickly in hot sunny weather. It is NOT a systemic herbicide! I do not understand the chemistry of Orange Oil well enough to talk about how/why it works (although it yellows the grass around a fire ant mound when I use it as a drench).

This natural herbicide recipe will be more effective on young, just sprouted weeds than large well established ones. If the plant has enough "stored energy" to push out new foliage then the weed will "come back". Old, large, tough weeds make take several sprayings to finally "kill".

I'd rather spray than weedeat - quicker, quieter, no pollution, vinegar breaks down and acts as a fertilizer.

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Always do your best and work hard, but just remember "No matter what you do Murphy's gonna visit sometimes"

First off, to the original question. yes the 20% can be diluted easily to 10% as described but I'd just use a little less per plant instead, the 20% should scorch it.

To the driveway problem....

Just a though - ashphalt or concrete???? Concrete reacts with and neutralizes acids (drop a little vinegar on it and watch it bubble bubble bubble).

If you try the 20% Acetic acid and it does not work than perhaps a stronger acid would??? Something like Muriatic (NOT A TOY!!!!!!) as this is fairly concentrated hydrochloric acid. I would darned sure not use it on the lawn but if you use it on driveway weeds ( be specific, ie AIM!) and go back a couple hours later and sprinkle a little DE powder or lime powder over it it will neutralize the acid into inert salts I believe.


Anyone got a reason why that would not work as a more drastic measure if this guy is not having success with Vinegar????

I have found the 10% vinegar at Home Depot also. Our local Home Depots have a great selection of organic products. I do believe in supporting local garden businesses but a purchase of organics is like a vote for organics with a corporation like HD. I try to buy some of my products from them so they will keep them in stock!

I was in Lowe's recently in S. A., looked for their organic gardening stuff, and found nothing. I asked about the orange oil I needed and they said it had been discontinued. Well, now I wonder if this is just a seasonal thing or if they just won't carry organic supplies any more. I complained on their net site. Thank goodness we still have Garden-Ville and Fertile Gardens here. The only reason we went to Lowe's in the first place was because we needed a home-improvement type of part also.

I was in Lowe's recently in S. A., looked for their organic gardening stuff, and found nothing. I asked about the orange oil I needed and they said it had been discontinued. Well, now I wonder if this is just a seasonal thing or if they just won't carry organic supplies any more. I complained on their net site. Thank goodness we still have Garden-Ville and Fertile Gardens here. The only reason we went to Lowe's in the first place was because we needed a home-improvement type of part also.

Sorry you had such a hard time finding what you were looking for at Lowe's. If it helps any we received a call from a store in San Antonio calling to confirm the situation on the orange oil. We were stocking the Texas TKO Orange Oil in all the stores we service and it has not been performing very well in sales. The problem stems from the high price point of this particular concentrated product and the fact that the label does not tell you what you can do with it in regards to Lawn & Garden. Those of us that have used TKO know it is a great product and the value is definately there.

The EPA has started cracking down on orange oil products and their labeling. Gardenville and other companies have been reworking their label to get approval. These are the reasons you are not going to be able to find the TKO product at Lowe's.

However, there is a full line of Organic Products available at the Lowe's stores in San Antonio and a lot of other cities. If you would like a current list please visit our webpage at www.agorganics.com/areas.html

The Organic Program at Lowe's is doing very well and will expand in 2004 to more stores in East Texas and Houston.