Prior to the new lawn going in, we have a "ton" of weeds. I have read some of Mr. Garrett's information regarding why one should not use a chemical pre-emergent.

Can a vinegar solution be used to kill the weeds and stop the stickers from germinating prior to the sod being laid down to or is there a better solution to prohibiting the weeds from germinating and regrowing?

Thanks

Remove all of the weeds that you can by hand, make sure to get all of the roots. You can use a product called the weed hound that will make this job go faster. Make sure to put them all in the trash and not back on the ground. Next, mow with a bagger to the lowest setting you can, again trashing all the clippings. You may want to rent a mower for this since all the sand and possibly rock will play havoc on your blade.

Once you have mowed it to the ground. Use 10-20% vinegar to treat the whole surface, 20% is not much more these days and will do the job faster. To this you can mix in a small amount (1 oz per Quart or 4 oz per gallon) of liquid gentle dish soap (like Ivory or Next Generation) to give the vinegar better surface adhesion. I would invest in a pump up wand sprayer for this, using a spray bottle would be very tiring and time consuming. DO NOT use a hose end sprayer here, you want full strength.

To help eliminate germination of future plants, you will want to use Corn Gluten Meal. This is applied in the spring and fall, before the plants that germinate in that season have had a chance to, application should be done early September and on valentines day or there abouts at a rate of 20-40lbs per 1000 sq ft. Also, if/when you improve the soil, stickers will not like it there any more.

Hope this helps ya...

PS: You asked about which grass to put in for the putting green look in another post. I would go with a hybrid tiff Bermuda, but, you will have to make sure that the ground is prepped very well for this to be possible. It will need to be very, very smooth to be able to mow it that short without scalping. Also, you will need to mow the grass with a reel type mower and not a rotary. These shear the grass and not just whack the blade off, which will leave that short of grass susceptible to drying out and disease problems.

_________________
---Scott in Texas---
"It begins with a garden... and becomes a way of life"
"Conserve today and save tomorrow!"

bladd,

Well I'm sure this will be confusing to someone new to the organic style of lawn care, but I'll be suggesting an approach which conflicts with the previous poster.

One I don't advocate putting any plant materials in the trash to be sent to the landfill. Now would be a good time to start a small compost pile and place those materials there. The same goes for bagging your clippings, don't send them to the landfill either. I don't own a bagger for either my power mulching mower or my real (reel) mower. My clippings, grass and weeds fall back to the ground where they belong. I further wouldn't suggest that you scalp your lawn, unless you are wanting to kill off everything and start again. Assuming you have some grass mixed in with your weeds, just mow (high most grasses except Bermuda), water deeply, and apply a quality organic fertilizer. When initially starting out on an organic program, it will help if you fertilize more often (3-4 times per year) and add some of the additional ammendments you read about here. Specifically for the stickers/burrs add humate which available in dry or liquid form. If you use the dry (which I prefer) be warned it is DUSTY, so dress accordingly, don't apply on a windy day, and be prepared to undress in the garage . A tip provided here is to apply your humate with another ammendment like fertilizer or lava sand.

You can pull weeds and spot treat with the strong vinegar/orange oil/soap solution. But your initial attach should concentrate on restoring biological life to the soil to feed the grass(es) that you have. The weeds will eventually diminish, but it will not happen overnight.

_________________
Keeping it clean and green here, Boss.
Reduce, Reuse, Recycle

Mr. Clean,

If you did not notice, he stated this is prior to the lawn going in, so I can only assume that it is just weeds. And, for the vinegar to work properly over the entire area that will be lawn, the weeds need to be cut before vinegar is applied to work at a vascular and not just surface level. Also, with the majority of the leaf surface removed, the weeds will have less of a chance to survive from the damage done by the vinegar.

Normally I would not suggest bagging either, but, since it is just weeds, and he may not have an area that he can commit to a compost pile, I suggested the bagging. This way also, if there are any mature seeds, they too hopefully will be bagged up and not giving them a chance to germinate. He could easily bag them and then punch a few holes in the bags to allow the clippings and weeds pulled to compost in them. I want to help him get ahead of the game so he is not having to play catch up and have a good experience with organics and gardening from the start. I hope that is everyone’s goal here… First and foremost? If it is not enjoyable and too much of a headache, people will just go back to what they have known most recently, chemicals. And then we have lost!

_________________
---Scott in Texas---
"It begins with a garden... and becomes a way of life"
"Conserve today and save tomorrow!"

Scott, you are correct, there is no existing lawn. I most definitely want to get ahead of the game.

One major area of concern is getting the lawn in within the next few weeks as I am running out of growing season and want the roots to establish as best they can.

Thanks for the feedback..

I would not be too concerned about running out of growing season. My house was completed in mid November 2002, the lawn was installed a week before we closed, 11-9 I believe and it came off without a hitch.

Let us know when you are ready to prep for the sod install and we can give you more info of what to do then, you have enough to get you started this weekend with the weed killing though. Also, make sure to not till the ground in any of the lawn area.

Hope this helps ya...

_________________
---Scott in Texas---
"It begins with a garden... and becomes a way of life"
"Conserve today and save tomorrow!"

You didn't tell us where you live. Texas is a big place. We sort of need a little more information.

If this is new construction you probably are going to have the lot regraded before sodding, right? Or if you want bermuda, you probably should have it regraded whether it's new or not. In that case you don't need to do anything. The grader will turn everything over into the dirt and leave you with a perfect surface for sod.

If this is not new construction and you are not going to put down bermuda but you already have a graded surface full of weeds, then I tend to agree with parts of what both y'all said. Vinegar will kill the surface of the weeds only. It does nothing to the roots. When you spray the vinegar the leaves will be dead in anywhere from 10 minutes to 3 days, so whether you clipped them off first or not makes no difference. If you use vinegar, I would start the dish soap at 1 teaspoon per gallon and see if it sticks okay with that. One ounce per quart is a ton of soap that your microbes don't need. Instead of spraying the weeds, I would mow them down with a mulch mower and leave the clippings in place. If you have stickers to get rid of, drag a piece of fabric or old carpet around to collect them. Or I could rent you my dog who seems to pick up every sticker in the neighborhood.

The best way to keep the weed seeds from germinating is to keep the sunlight off of them. Do that by growing dense turf. You also didn't mention what grass you will ge getting although Scott has put 2 and 2 together and come up with Tiff. Mow bermuda very low (1/2 inch) for max density. Bermuda should be mowed with a reel and St Aug can be mowed with a rotary mower. Mow St Augustine as high as your mower will go for maximum density and shade over your soil.

The best way to keep sprouted weed seeds from taking root is to keep them dry. Do that by proper watering. You should water deeply but no more often than once per week (in the heat of summer) after your turf is established. By letting the surface dry out completely, anything with only surface roots will die.

The organic preemergent is corn GLUTEN meal. Apply that at 40 pounds per 1,000 square feet in the fall and/or spring depending on which weeds you want to stop.

_________________
David Hall
Moderator
Dirt Doctor Lawns Forum

I live in Lubbock. Some call it "Left Texas", but I prefer West Texas...

While we are on the subject of Reel mowers, do you recommend 7 blade or 10 blade? I assume 10 blade provides a better cut.

Thanks

Ten blades has to be better because it is more, right? Actually I think it is better. I recently used a 7 blade and was not thrilled with the grass it missed. I was not mowing low, though, and those mowers really do work better at lower heights.

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David Hall
Moderator
Dirt Doctor Lawns Forum

Actually one of the reasons I got my reel mower was because it could be adjusted up to 2.5". I have used it regularly to mow my St. Augustine, and it cuts it very well. Nice, clean cuts. I wouldn't discount these mowers as one dimensional.

_________________
Keeping it clean and green here, Boss.
Reduce, Reuse, Recycle

Mr Clean,
I was using a very cheap push reel, so I should hold my comments. It only worked well at low heights. Can you find a picture of it on the Internet and link us?

_________________
David Hall
Moderator
Dirt Doctor Lawns Forum

This is the manufacturer and a similar mower. I don't know that it is the exact model as mine. I bought mine used and it didn't come with the owner's manual. I looked them up and called them. They sent me a manual which covered 3 model types. This appears to be the closest, although mine is supposed to be adjustable to 2.5" vs. the 2.25" as shown.
Good mower, good cut. My only complaint is the cost involved sharpening the blades.

http://www.reelin.com/fiveh.htm

Mine is heavy. This mower is supposedly an improvement in weight and design

http://www.cleanairgardening.com/brillux38ree.html

I can't confirm any of that, but mine was quite a bit less $s.

_________________
Keeping it clean and green here, Boss.
Reduce, Reuse, Recycle