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 Post subject: new guy
PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2003 12:48 am 
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There is no place on earth that is pollution free - NONE. Going 35 to 40 miles off the coast is as pollution free as you are going to get on this earth in any ocean that is possible to get to. The reason they no longer take water from Gulf is that it is totally polluted, mostly from the Mississippi River.
Salt is not a problem, infact with out the salt the trace minerals will not be absorbed. Remember - sea water is concentrated from 10 gals down to 1 gal and then we mix 1 gal with 100 gals of water - this mixture then has the exact smae saline content as our blood.
The reason sea water is so good is that with 100 to 200 years of land abuse, all the good stuff was washed out to sea - we are just returning it to its rightful place (I am sure that is probably not true with every trace mineral)

Remember what Linus Pauling said - All disease is related to lack of trace minerals.
There are almost no trace minerals in the food you buy and eat from the regular stores and not a lot more from the organic foods that are available.
I am open to other suggestions but so far after years of reading and study, I have not found anything that is as complete as Total Ocean Nutrition or as cheap to use. It may be the perfect product for restoring land and health to people that really need it.
Robert D Bard


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2003 10:46 am 
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Folks, how did breast cancer get into this line of discussion? Bob, I know you love this sea water stuff -- and I've decided to give it a try and have ordered some for our pasture -- but no one thing is a cure-all, whether for the land or for health. Pam, I happen to know a very fine woman with breast cancer who has never had an abortion and who nursed both her sons.

We all have a tendency to go off-topic, and it's usually one of the fun things about these boards. Still, it wouldn't hurt to think a little before throwing around comments about cancer and other issues that are, literally, life and death issues to many people out there.

Judith


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 Post subject: cancers
PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2003 6:38 pm 
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I'm in agreement with Pam. I believe what she is saying is that we can reduce our chances of contracting/aggravating stuff by doing what we are supposed to do. We are prone to a lot of our problems due to genetics; why aggravate? We should live our lives in harmony with nature & do what is natural. This includes breast feeding, avoiding bad fats, drinking clean water, eating natural unprocessed foods, etc., etc. Pam, if I misspoke, please correct me! We are definitely on the wrong forum.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2003 12:25 am 
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Okay you guys, I wasn't too sure about this but I bounced it off my chemistry teacher sister and here's what she had to say:

A. You CANNOT convert metallic elements to nonmetallic elements. It cannot be done without nuclear fusion or fission. Period. It looks like this fellow is using OLD organic chemistry terminology that almost anyone who has taken a chemistry class in the last 10 years would recognise. He is just talking about your average vitamin pill. Elemental metals are mixed in and incorporated -- something like calcium and phosphorus crystals becoming part of our bones and teeth -- and this colloidal just keeps them from degrading before they are applied, probably. Sounds like a little bit of gelatin mixed with the products of boiling down the seawater, with some enzymatic action provided by the whole batch being allowed to cool at room temperature uncovered so that bacteria and dust can infiltrate it.....you could pretty much achieve the same results with that procedure.

B. What the writer is describing is the absorption of minerals into the bodies and living systems of plants and animals. The description of these minerals as "colloidal" is just a fancy way of saying they are suspended in a mixture. Which is the way ALL living things use metallic elements. There is enough iron in breakfast cereal to pull it out with a magnet and a good amount of stirring!! He is just mixing chemical terminology but the reality is that there is a concentration of and a strong mixture of minerals in sea water -- some of which are extremely beneficial - but many of which will not be used up and will end up building up in the soil or in plant tissues and causing problems.

C. Dilution allows some temperance of the metal distribution, but I honestly cannot think of a good reason to use an unfiltered mixture of sea and freshwater and not expect adverse effects. Maybe one application every 2 to 5 years would be okay, but using it regularly would create a gigantic problem.

She went on to suggest if anyone knows about "Instant Ocean" and how this product is different from the one Robert is talking about except that "Instant Ocean" is crystals and his product is suspended in a colloid. She also suggested we ask for information on what else is added during processing. It might also be good to ask how long Robert has used it, how often, whether he has tested his soil. So there's some input from a third party who knows more about chemistry than me, at least.

These questions should get others on the forum stimulated to ask more questions for a thorough dialogue. I have to agree though, that there is no one magic bullet. Just ceasing the use of poisons goes a long way to allowing natural systems of balance return to the way they were designed by God. That's what I'm shooting for.

And as the egranddaughter of a two-time breast cancer survivor, I have to say my piece on this issue. (Sorry, Robert, but you started this). If the was anything in this world that could actually PREVENT breast cancer, I would jump on it. Genetics plays a huge role for predisposition but environment certainly provides triggers. I don't know how one could measure the prevention of a disease when no one is exactly sure of its source. I am only an amateur scientist, but I'm not the dimmest bulb on the porch either. If someone tried to sell me a product with that tagline I'd put it on the shelf next to the Snake Oil and walk away. There, I'm done.

Peace, ya'll. 'Tis the season.
Kathe


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2003 12:55 pm 
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Kathe, I love that you somehow find scientific information for us.

I feel I must explain my reasons for commenting on the original post about breast cancer research. Robert said Dr. Murray found that using sea water to grow food prevented breast cancer. Maybe this works. I just think we "cure" illnesses that can be prevented by simple life changes. Instead of a whole food diet, we take Lipitor for cholesterol. Instead of exercise and a whole food low carb/sugar diet for diabetes, we take insulin.

I have read a link between abortion (and miscarriage) and breast cancer. When women become pregnant (especially first time) the breast cells change and prepare for lactation. The theory is that when that process is interrupted, the immature cells are left in limbo without a job. These rogue cells are now primed for the formation of cancer. If memory serves me right I think this research was published in medical journals.

Now I think there is research about breastfeeding and cancer as well. I thought it was interesting about the group of people using only one breast. Differences in how people live interests me.

Now when I say "prevent" cancer, I'm not saying this works for everyone. Just like in any condition or disease many factors play roles including diet, lifestyle, heredity and exposure to toxins.

Also, it may be good for the land to use sea water (heck we may try it) because we have depleted that land. We used machines and chemicals to strip away nutrients so now we may have to use ships and machines to extract it from the ocean to replace those nutrients. Ask the Amish about using one technology to fix the problems of the previous generations technology. Now I’m not going to chunk my computer out the window (because I’m sufficiently addicted to my technology) but sometimes I see things that aren’t natural or intended by God and I try to exclude them.

Finally, I too have had family members taken by cancer, heart disease and diabetes. Anyone who hasn’t is very well blessed. We all must take information with a grain of salt, decide things for ourselves and live life the best we can.

Pam

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 Post subject: one more time...
PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2003 1:42 pm 
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AMEN SISTER! We agree...and we're all so eloquent! 8)

Scientific research/information is easier to find when you have a scientist for a sister. Lucky me! :D Saves me lots of time.

Kathe


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 Post subject: restoring land
PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2003 12:45 am 
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Everyone has had some good points, but the information is out there and I will give you some sources to explore.
The teachers comment about inorganic trace minerals not being converted to organic absorbable trace minerals is just not right. There are many sources confirming that collidal trace minerals are the most absorbable (if this didn't work why bother eating plants), chelated the second best and the metalic form - most used in store bought vitamins and minerals.
The study Dr Murray did suggests that genetically caused breast cancer could be prevented with nutrition. We know that asian women have a very low breast cancer rate, and women (and men) in countries that have grass fed meat and dairy have a lower breast cancer rate. We need to explore cancer prevention. The money collected today in the name of research - cancer society, etc is just money down a rat hole. No one in the system wants to prevent disease, as 1/3 of our economy would collapse.

I belive it is up to each and every one of us to use all the resources we can find to treat ourselves. That will be food, water, air - all polluted with no nutrition in food. The sources will be like Jo Robinson www.eatwild.com , Sherry Rogers, MD www. prestigepublishing.com (detoxification. etc) Dr Murray and sea water www.acresusa.com, homeopathy, Sally Fallon www.westonaprice.org, chiropractic, environmental medicine, ( I am sure I have left out something, it's late).

I think it is important to not have opinions on things I know nothing about. The idea that sea water doesn't work or that it causes problems is an opinion without foundation or studying. The idea that research done by credible people for over 60 years with documentation to be disbelieved by someone that knows nothing about the topic is outrageous. Go to www.oceannutrition.com

We need to educate ourselves and challenge each other. This sight and the internet is the only way we are going to learn as the information will not come from the drug companies and medicine.
Robert D Bard


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 Post subject: Question
PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2003 12:10 am 
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Agreed. We have to be fair, and I think we mostly agree.
FYI - The teacher who made the comments is a much-recognized high school chemistry teacher who has won state and regional environmental awards for years and maintains her farm land organically. I have to hope she knows what she's talking about, but I guess everyone is mistaken at times. Perhaps this is one of those times, perhaps not.

I think we all try to explore information given by our forum participants, so I took you up on yours. Now I have a question: When I go to www.oceannutrition.com, it comes up as a site that is dedicated (this is from the website) "to create the perfect food for tropical fish by duplicating, as nearly as possible, their natural diet from the coral reef or the aquatic ecosystem of rivers and lakes." I searched trying to find a fertilizer product but to no avail. Please restate the website so others like me can pursue research as you suggest. I'd like to find out more. This doesn't seem to be the right one. Thank you.
Kathe


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 Post subject: help the new guy
PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2003 11:26 pm 
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I messed up. I meant to say www.oceangrown.com
Sorry but it was late.
Robert D Bard


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 Post subject: Oceanwater questions
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 1:07 am 
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This post is by Kathe's chemistry teacher/sister, and at Kathe's request, I have reviewed the entire string on this subject, as well as the website recommended by Mr. Bard. Allow me to offer some observations and clarifications.

Perhaps a part of the misunderstanding in this discussion comes from the inconsistent use of the words "organic", inorganic", "mineral" and "element".

Chemically speaking: "Organic" refers to any compound that includes CARBON as its fundamental unit. That means that Petroleum is "organic" by chemical definition!! "Inorganic" covers all the others. So we must be careful not to use these terms indiscriminately within different communities....they simply do not mean the same thing in different situations. That is why it is very important to use terminology consistently and correctly.

Metallic elements -- from perspective of their listing on the periodic table of elements -- compose the vast majority of the elemental substances on our earth and in the universe (as far as we know). Metallic elements combine with nonmetallic elements to form what are called MINERALS. These minerals are dissolved in solution in our oceans, and in fact in all freshwater bodies as well. They are found in underground reservoirs. When they evaporate naturally, they form the beautiful figures found in caves and when they are excreted by sea creatures they form the marvelous coral reefs. They are harvested by humans from the earth and from the oceans in a crystallized form that results from evaporation, or the removal of the minerals from an aqueous solution (dissolved in water). The "salt flats" in Utah are the mineral deposits left behind when a huge ocean evaporated from that region.

Here is a point of importance in the discussion: SALT is a commercial marketing word used for the chemical compound Sodium Chloride. "Salt Substitute", another commercial name, is actually the chemical compound Potassium Chloride.
The word "Salt" is a chemical term for crystallized, mineral compounds that, when dissolved in water, conduct electricity.
These compounds are important for living things, because they
a)assist conduction of electrical impulses in the nervous systems of animals (sodium and potassium are crucial to the proper functioning of and structural integrity of cells)
b) provide structural components in the bodies of living things (calcium and phosphorus are incorporated in the bones of vertebrates) and
c) provide the chemical ionizing power that allows some metabolic processes to occur (example: iron binds oxygen to red blood cells).

It is true that the mineral content of our oceans is vast and extremely beneficial to many organisms. The bottom of the oceanic food chain is the microscopic organisms that survive on the elemental compounds of the ocean, in solution with water. These organisms are algae. The algae of the ocean perform photosynthesis, and these algae are consumed by single celled organisms as well as small animals. The small animals feed the larger animals, and so on. Decomposers break down wastes and dead organisms and return the minerals and elements to the water. This is similar to the food chains that exist on land, with the producers using elemental substances to form their own food, and providing food for the consumers.


Why the primer on chemical terminology and ecology? The misuse -- or abuse -- of these terms often misleads the general public.

The average vitamin pill contains metallic elements that are necessary to human health. However; when taken in too high a dose, these vitamin pills can create a toxic metabolic situation. Most people who "overdose" on vitamins simply pass the excess in their stool. However, some can be poisoned!! Small children have been poisoned by eating too many of their fruit-flavored vitamins. These now carry a warning that they should be kept out of reach of children!

This same principal holds true with ocean water. It is not just water. It is not just "salt" dissolved in water. It is several elemental compounds dissolved in water. Condensing anything just means boiling the water out of it. Reconstituting or diluting it decreases its concentration. Just as land-dwelling animals cannot tolerate ocean water, land-dwelling plants cannot tolerate it. They can take it for a short amount of time, in small doses that are diluted, but they cannot incorporate all the elements, and instead, the water evaporates and the SALTS are left behind to toxify the soil. This is the same principal as the overdose of vitamin pills.

This is why a product such as the one described in the recommended website is diluted for application. This is practical and economical. The thing that is NOT practical about this, however, is that there are metallic elements -- in abundance -- in ocean water, that should NOT be applied to our soil. Some will be incorporated into plant material, but many will remain as "salts" in the soil. And they will build up and they will toxify it.

Our ocean shores are inhabited by a special group of plants and animals that can thrive in a freshwater-saltwater habitat. These habitats are extremely productive and beneficial to all life on land and in the ocean. But they have specific metabolic processes, and their environment -- the estuary -- tempers the salt content of the land and water on which they depend. It is an ecological ballet that has not been reproduced by man.

My concern about using ocean water, however diluted, is that the excess minerals applied are not meant to be there. They will not be incorporated into a healthy ecosystem, and they will contribute to the development of chemical salinity in freshwater systems, overload of the soil, and failure of plant life to take up necessary nutrients. Just as freshwater fish cannot survive for long in the ocean, land-based organisms cannot tolerate ocean water in their soil. Put a tadpole in a bucket of ocean water and see what happens.

I hope that my comments will be helpful. There is certainly a possibility that I am missing something. But my intention is to inform and clarify. The research to which I have access is incomplete and does not provide imperical data. I must rely upon a fundamental understanding of life processes and geological principles in discussing this topic. I hope you learned something new! I know that I did! And in closing, please understand that I view this forum as a fantastic exchange that you are all lucky to have.

Peace and blessings,
Kimberly Berg, B.A. Biology/Life & Earth Science :D


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 3:37 am 
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I thank you for your comments but your responses are what I would expect from chemical and drug companies that do not want their status quo to be upset for fear that their chemical world will collapse and they might be exposed for the health distruction.
First of all you have an opinion on sea water and you have done no research to see if it is valid. I suggest you start off with Dr. Naynard Murray's
book containing years of research. This can be obtained from www.acresusa.com. You can also go to www.oceangrown.com.
Between Dr. Murray MD and Don Jansen, they have research for year. They have grown hydroponically with sea water for years and have proof that the plants produce superior crops.
Sea water used on the land has proven to be the only product that does not prove toxic (commercial fertilizers are certainly toxic and they do not restore trace minerals - why do you think the food sold in the stores have no nutrition) and restores the health of the land so that we can again harvest healthy food that has trace minerals, vitamins, amino acids, and enzymes.
We are nation of degenerative diseases and we are getting worse every year. One hundred years ago the cancer rate was 3% and today it is 38 to 39 %. Forty to fifty years ago we didn't have Alzheimer's, or ADD - today they in epidemic proportions.
Good nutrition can help detoxify the chemicals we are exposed to in our environment. There about 500 chemicals in any given city water supply on any given day, there are about 2000 airbourne chemicals in our air (any place in the world) on any given day. Meat has hormones, antibiotics, steroids, chemical from wormers, no omega III's or CLA's from grain feeding, herbicides and almost no trace minerals becasue they are are not being replaced by farmers. The meat is wrapped in styrofoam bottoms and plastic coverings that out gas and introduce chemicals into the meat that cause depression, cancer, and cause young women to develop at an earlier age than nature intended (out gasing imitates hormones). Our food is being grown on land that contains herbicides, chemicals (that are from NPK fertilizers - did you ever analyze the inert ingredients in fertilizer mostly industrial wastes that can be very toxic), no humus (doesn't hold water - allows chemicals to wash into the sea), and no trace minerals (used up or washed to the sea years ago. Most of our fruits and vegatables have pesticides on them and for the most part they are wraped in plastics that out gas the same as meat.
How can we expect good nutrition to detoxify our bodies when there is no nutrition in our foods.
Dr. Murray observed (as surgeon) that there was an increasing rate of timors and other cancers in people and fresh water fish, but there was no cancer in fish and mammals in the ocean. That is what started his research in the 1940's.
He had one project that took fields and devided them into two's. 1/2 got chemical fertilizers and other 1/2 got sea fertilizers. He did this to three crops - corn, soy beans and one other. He made a feed out of these with no other additives. Through a university study they purchased 300 female mice that were genetically bred to have two litters and die of breast cancer in 9 months. 1/2 the mice got chemical fertilized food and 1/2 go sea water fertilizer. At 8 months the chemical group were all dead. At 16 months the sea water group were all alive and after the project was terminated and the mice sacrificed there was not one case of breast cancer. I maybe just an ole country boy (with and education), but that suggests that cancer just might be due to nutrition caused by a lack of trace minerals.
Please take your interest and education, keep an open mind, and dig into the "Natural Way" and expand your knowledge and help us help help people become healthier.
You are right about the chemistry of organic and inorganic having different meanings depending on how we use them. Trace minerals are inorganic and they can be converted to organic forms through plants and animals so that we as consumers can get them into our bodies to help our immune systems and give us nutrition. We can not get them if they are not in the soil. Dr. Murry found that we can get 92 trace minerals, amino acids, enzymes, and beneficial bacteria from ocean water. There are no other sources for so much nutrition creating "stuff" any place in the world. The salt problem you refer to does not exist with salt water because it is important for the up take of the minerals that the plants need. I also think it is interesting that at 100 to 1 dilution that we use is exactly the same as the saline content in our blood.
When using sea water it is ideal to use every 2 to 4 weeks during the rainy season if you have the time and your soil is not mostly clay. When the soils are sandy or sandy loam the sea nutrients go down past the root zone and disappear. If you have clay (particularly with humus to hold moisture) then the sea water only needs to be done about 2 times per year. There are tests that an individual can do to measure how often this needs to be done depending on soiuld type.
One other point about trace minerals. There are three ways we can supplement our bodies.
1st Metallic form - calcium citrate (there are combinations of calcium). If you are over 35 then about 3% of this product is absorbable.
2nd Chelated - metalic molecule is warped in amino acids and the body is tricked into absorbing about 40 % of the mineral.
3rd Colloidal form - the minerals - calcium or what ever - are taken into the plant from the soil and coverted into a form that we can all use. This form is about 97 % absorbable by our bodies.
The problem is "the trace minerals have to be in the soil before they can be absorbed by the plants".
Ocean water is the best, most complete way to do this and it is the cheapest way. It is also "ORGANIC" or at least as organic as you can get in this polluted world.
Robert D Bard


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 6:37 am 
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Would not the potash mined from the salt flats of Utah and Searles Lake in Trona CA also contain the full mineral spectrum found in ocean water? And, since the potash is removed from brine that is deep below the hard surface of the lakes (flats), and has not been exposed to anything mankind has produced, wouldn't it be pretty much pollution free? I do find the ocean water to be an interesting idea, and may use it in the future. During this whole thread, and similar threads, I have been thinking about the agricultural products mined from Searles Lake in Trona CA. This lakebed is touted as one of the most mineral rich areas on earth. I would think the agricultural products would contain a broad spectrum of these minerals and would replinish the land in a manner similiar to the ocean water product.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 7:31 am 
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IT SEEMS THAT I HAVE GENERATED A LOT OF CONVERSATION ABOUT DIFFERENT REASONS WHY TO GO ORGANIC WHICH IS GREAT! NOW I NEED TO KNOW WHEN DO I APPLY THE LIQUID MOLASSES AND /OR SEAWATER. I ALSO NEED TO KNOW IS THERE ANYTHING ELSE THAT COULD/SHOULD BE APPLIED TO GIVE ME THE BEST GRASS/ HAY FOR MY HORSES. ALSO I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW HOW THE QUANTITY OF HAY WILL BE AFFECTED. ( BECAUSE IF I HAVE TO BUY HAY THEN I HAVE DEFEATED THE PURPOSE OF GETTING RID OF THE ARTIFICAL CHEMICALS)
NEXT QUESTION : IS THERE ANY OTHER TYPE OF GRASSESTHAT I COULD PLANT THAT WOULD GIVE ME THE QUALITY AND QUANTITY THAT I NEED FOR MY HORSES. AND DON'T FORGET THAT CLOVER IS TOXIC TO HORSES.

THANKS!!!!!! :D :D


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 9:34 am 
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Kimberly, thank you for your post. I'm planning to give the ocean water a try and see the results, on the theory that many of these minerals that we don't know a purpose for may have a purpose. I am definitely cautious about it, though, for the reasons you stated so clearly (I had them more as vague notions in my head).

Wayne, here's what I'd suggest (though I'm definitely still a beginner at this!) Apply liquid molasses, up to a gallon an acre, in early spring. I'd mix it with some kind of pro-biotic, whether it's aerobic compost tea or some commercial formula (we're planning to use MicroGrow from Watson Ranch, http://www.homestead.com/watsonorganic/home.html). Since I don't know how much the little critters in the compost tea and MicroGrow will like the ocean salts, I'm planning to apply the ocean grown solution either a month before or a month after. If you need to boost the quantity of hay, Watson Ranch has some good fertilizers for applying in between cuttings. If you've got a decent quantity, you might just stick with periodic sprays of molasses to encourage the bacteria.

Coastal bermuda is the standby for horses in this area, and I've been pretty happy with how our horses do on it.

Judith


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 Post subject: help the new guy
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 11:10 pm 
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Question I put molasses in the sea water along with garlic and Howards compost tea, but is a gallon of molasses per acre more than we need?????
Common bermuda is a grass but the other bermudas are hybrids and as most know they require extra N. What we have been doing is to add potassium nitrate - 1 lb per 100 gals. This is a product that is not processed (chemistry and some industries do refine it but this is dug from the earth from deposits). This gives a little extra push but is not like the NPK fertilizers. I don't think it is necessary, but I still put 1 ton of humate on our 18 or so acres ( we have about 4 acres of trees) as I am trying to increase humas as quickly as possible.
Robert D Bard


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