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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 8:20 pm 
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I am confused. If cgm is a pre emerge herbicide and I use it or cgm feed as a fertilizer on my wheat fields, and apply it before i plant my wheat, will it keep my wheat from sprouting? Does cgm feed do the same thing as cgm, but only have a lower amount of protien, which means less of a fertilization effect? Is it weaker as a herbicide too? cgm feed according to a table i looked at states that it is 88% dry matter. 21% protien. If i apply 200# of cgm per acre, how much nitrogen will be applying per acre. My answer, and this is only using the limited knowledge i have gleaned from this forum in the short time i have been her, is 5.7# of N per acre. I would like to know if this is right or not. I know that this is alot of questions, but i am preparing to seed 1500 to 2000 acres of winter wheat later on this month and if i am going to use an organic product I want to do it right. I cant afford to spend a lot of money on something that isnt goint to do waht i think it is only to find out that i didnt understand all that i thought i knew about it. The satisfaction of doing it organicly will not be reward enough to pay the bills. Thanks for any help any of you can give. dnd


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 9:34 pm 
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dandd wrote:
I am confused. If cgm is a pre emerge herbicide and I use it or cgm feed as a fertilizer on my wheat fields, and apply it before i plant my wheat, will it keep my wheat from sprouting? Does cgm feed do the same thing as cgm, but only have a lower amount of protien, which means less of a fertilization effect? Is it weaker as a herbicide too? cgm feed according to a table i looked at states that it is 88% dry matter. 21% protien. If i apply 200# of cgm per acre, how much nitrogen will be applying per acre. My answer, and this is only using the limited knowledge i have gleaned from this forum in the short time i have been her, is 5.7# of N per acre. I would like to know if this is right or not.dnd


200# of a 60% protein cgm would contain ~ 19# of N. 200# of the 21% protein cgm feed you mentioned would contain ~ 6 3/4# of N. If the cgm component in the cgm feed product is in a fairly unadulterated state, then it "should" retain the herbicidal effect somewhat proportionate to its 1/3 strength. I don't have experience using cgm on the seeds of field grains such as wheat, but maybe you have time to test your proposed application rate on a small test area seeded at same rate you will use in the planting. Whether 200#/acre of the diluted cgm feed would do much damage to the wheat seeds, which are fairly large compared to most weed seeds, I don't know. Christians's original patents on the use of corn, wheat, and soy gluten as preemergents mention in an offhand manner that they would be applied [edit: at 400-1700#/acre] to already-emerged field crop plants.

If nitrogen is the only concern (which it rarely is in the organic fertilizer context), then the entire organic fertilizer field is in play. Using only cgm or alfalfa probably isn't the most economical nitrogen choice for large scale use. Prices for plant-sourced nitrogen vary with location and availability, and the basis is strong at this time of the year. Because of the corn sweetener and ethanol production, cgm availability is more stable than it once was. Soy and cottonseed meal prices and basis usually begin to weaken about now as the harvest season nears. Location affects the price of some products more than others; cottonseed meal generally is relatively higher in Minneapolis than in Memphis and linseed meal generally is relatively higher in Memphis than in Minneapolis. The nitrogen content of typical meals and their approximate current wholesale price/ton basis Minneapolis are: alfalfa ~ 2.75% (~$105), linseed ~ 5.5% (~$110), cottonseed ~ 6.5% (~$170), soy ~ 7-7.75% (~$210), cgm ~ 9.5 (~$290), feather ~12.8% (~$260). I probably would not use sunflower meal (4.5% N/~$90/ton) in high quantities because of its allelopathic tendencies. Those nitrogen costs usually divert the conversation to the use of animal manures as part of a large scale application.

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Last edited by Enzyme11 on Fri Sep 03, 2004 5:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 11:41 pm 
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To get a good preemergent effect on an acre, you would need to apply about 1,800 pounds of CGM. If you're significantly less than half that amount, then all you're getting is the fertilizer effect. Still, even at the weakest recommended fertilizer rate you should be using more like 450 pounds per acre.

Why not use something with more protein bang for the buck like alfalfa or soy meal? If you want something with super high protein and long term residual, get feather meal or hair.

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 Post subject: corn gluten meal
PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2004 12:42 am 
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Come on guys - this is 1500 to 2000 acres of wheat. This is a nice idea but totally cost prohibitive.
I prevented or got rid of sand burs by increasing fertility - ocean water, liquid humic acid and molasses. This is economic realality - cgm is not.

Sea water can be shipped in 55 gallon drums, or 270 totes. 2000 acres needs 200 gal. A tote is cheaper to ship and it would cost $2.41 per acre. Sea water is the most important ingredient because of 92 trace minerals, beneficial bacteria, followd by amino acids and enzymes.
Humate is important for detoxifing past chemicals and 1/2 gal would be 3 totes.
Molasses is important to feed the bacteria while they get started.
This year in Ne you could lease land for nothing because all the chemicals used in the past had destroyed the land. A farmer leased land for almost nothing and used sea water only. He has just produced the best corn crop they have sen in that area for many years. Any one that wants to talk to this guy and/or the guy in ND or SD that produced the best crop of oats anyone has seen in that area in many years, can be arranged.

The cheapest way to get organic matter to increase, is to raise a green manure and disc it in. Also after the wheat is harvested the remaining residue should be disc into the soil.
Robert D Bard


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 Post subject: green manure
PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2004 6:49 am 
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Location: Plano & land at Dodd City,TEXAS
Robert-
What green manure crop do you think is best?
Patty

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2004 7:24 am 
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I'm glad corn gluten feed came up. It is being sold as CGM by some but it is an almost worthless product other than maybe an ingredient in the compost pile. The only CGM that should be used is the 60% stuff and it is too expensive for ag production in most cases. Molasses products with very small levels of urea are good for making the transition. The sea water is an interesting point but why couldn't you make your own from sea salt. Folks using this technique should be careful about building the sodium level in the soil over 400 ppm at the most.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2004 12:37 pm 
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I think sea salt is pure sodium chloride and the sea water product is like the condensed milk of the sea - simply has most of the H2O removed. So the sea water product would provide more balanced salts plus whatever balance of microbes were living in it. As K Chandler has pointed out, it's not the (low) level of salt that matters, it's the balance of sodium, calcium, magnesium that matters. In the north they recover from winter road salt (sodium chloride) damage by applying Epsom salt - more salt but magnesium based - and with lime (calcium). These balance the sodium.

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 Post subject: Re: corn gluten meal
PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2004 12:57 pm 
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Robert D Bard wrote:
Come on guys - this is 1500 to 2000 acres of wheat. This is a nice idea but totally cost prohibitive.
I prevented or got rid of sand burs by increasing fertility - ocean water, liquid humic acid and molasses. This is economic realality - cgm is not.


Hence my references to animal manures and to the $ per unit N for the meals. Processed meals usually are too expensive for production grains (except maybe for certified organic production), but that can depend on the rate, which in turn depends on the soil condition. Sand burrs are unlikely to be an important weed problem in this case, and in any event they indicate a different situation than do more typical grasses and broadleaf weeds. Applied fertilizers alone probably won't help control them. Obviously, it's too late in the season for a green manure crop. Fertilizing conventional wheat is a tricky economic balance anyway--the yield and price balance usually can't acommodate much of a fertilization cost. Speaking of input costs, I'd be interested to know where in NE one can lease crop ground for no cash or crop share.

For those curious as to why cgm is diluted into corn gluten feed, the 60% protein cgm presents utilization issues for ruminants, handling issues for the feeder, and marketing issues for the seller. Blending it into a feed product is aimed at relieving those problems, so be aware of the labels when you buy cgm.

What's in the sea salt depends on how it's processed. Some (culinary) products are the raw product left from evaporation. Sea salt probably is extracted from water with a higher sodium concentration than is in the offshore water used for the product Robert mentioned. I don't believe the suggestion that total cation levels are unimportant is entirely accurate. Plant tolerance for osmolarity is limited, regardless of the balance. Of course, some species tolerate increased osmolarity better than others, as evidenced by the types of plants that thrive in salt marshes and in coastal areas. The cation balance is important up to that osmolarity limit, which I assume is what K. and others mean.

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In theory, theory and practice are the same; in practice, they aren't -- lament of the synthetic lifestyle.


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 Post subject: organic wheat
PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2004 11:53 pm 
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I think this was the original topic.
Its time for everyone to do some home
work. Go to www.acresusa.com and/or
www.oceangrown.com You have to read
Dr. Nurray's book on using sea water for
fertilizer. It isn't enough that I tell you
about his work, you need to study.
The salt does not build up in the soil. In
fact the salt in sea water is the same as
in our blood or tears. If you take sea water
and remove the NaCl the other trace materials
are not taken up in to the plant.
Dr. Murrays original theory, back in the 1940's
was that cancer did not effect fish or mammals
from the oceans, but was present in people
and fresh water fish. His reasoning was that
sea water must have the perfect balance of
trace minerals. He did prove this many times
over through the 50', 60's, and 70's. He
passed away in the early 80's, but his work
has been carried on by Don Jansen.
Sea water is the same the world over, but
due to our stupidity we have pollited a lot
of the oceans - particularly the Gulf of
Mexico. The water is still almost unpolluted
if you go off the coast far enough. The
average person would not know this but
the currents in the Atlantic Ocean keeps
the pollution up against the shore and not
out at sea. (This is why a lot of kelp is not
healthy) Doesn't this excite you asn make
you want to go to the beach on the Atlantic
coast and the Gulf of Mexico. Gulf is so
polluted they can not take sea wate and we
should not be eating anything from the Gulf.
There goes your Gulf shrimp!!!!!
If you want to find cheap land to rent go to
NE and to get info about crops grown with
sea water in NE, ND orSD go to www.oceangrown.com
and call Don and tell him I told you to call.
Howard did mention that you can use salt
and he is right, but the only one you can
use is Redmond salt from Redmond, UT.
I use their chunks for our mini grass fed
cows (and soon goats) to lick. My wife
and I use it in the house on our food.
The problem of using it on your fields
is that it is easy to over due and increase
the salt to a level that will begin to kill
plants instead of helping them. This can
not happen with sea water. Sea water is
concentrated from 10 gal to one gal (H2O
removed not the beneficial stuff). When we
use it we dilute it from 1 gal of concentrate
to 100 gals of solution. My formula for
restoring pasture and hay meadows is to
also add liquid humic acid, molasses (I can
now get molasses from Ronnie Felderhoff
in Muenster, Tx without any urea).

I like the discussion but it is time for home
work. Read Dr. Murray's book.
I think he was right and I also believe that
65% of of US residents have degerative
diseases and that is because the food we
buy has no trace minerals in it. The trace
minerals have been farmed out or tied up
with acid fertiliizers (ph well below 7).
Gardens are easy. It is cheap to buy compost,
compost tea, etc, but the hard part is how do
we change the unhealthy land and then grow
healthy food for the masses. If you do your
home work. I think you will decide that some
combination of sea water, humate and
molasses is the ticket.
I have done 300 acres this year, I just
got 50 more. Next year I don't think I
will be able to handle all the business
in this area. I just found out that my hay
man has had people calling for sea water
hay as they have told is is better and their
cows like it better.

I am also going to take this opportunity to
advertise my radio talk show in Dallas on Sundays
at noon - right after Howard. The show is Healthy,
Wealthy, and Wise. We talk about health issues - like
industrial toxic wates in fertilizer, flouride in water,
mercury in foods, fire retardent in our bodies
and mothers milk, ways to make money so
that you will not have to live in poverty at 65
on SS, and a little wisdom along the way to help
our minds. This Sunday my guest is our son and
we are going to talk on how to earn a return on
you investments of over 100% with ATM's.

www.robertbard.com is the web site and the
station is KMSR 990 AM radio. It is on streaming audio.
www.990mainstreet.com
Robert D Bard


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 05, 2004 5:53 pm 
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So Robert, You say Iwould need 200 gallons of sea water to do 2000 acres of wheat. If I read what you posted right you dilute it 10 to 1 in water and apply it with a liquid sprayer. Should that be applied before planting and incorperated, or sprayed post-emerge. I belive you mentioned liquid humic acid the other day in a post. What rate is it applied at? What is the cost of it and how is it shipped. I would really like to try some of this on at least two or thre hundred acres this fall if there is still time. The price of the sea water is certainly appealing. If i recall the liquid humic acid was affordable too. Thanks dnd


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 Post subject: organic wheat and CGM
PostPosted: Sun Sep 05, 2004 10:09 pm 
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The great thing about organics is that it doesn't put you in the poor house.
Sea water is taken from ocean (60 or so miles east of Miami - past the pollution). 10 gal of sea water is condensed into 1 gal of concentrate and shipped in 1 gal, 5 gal, 55 gal, and 270 gal tote.
Don't take my word for this. I have been very successful this year on pastures and hay meadows, but I recommend you talk to someone who has grown crops - corn, oats, and wheat.
Go to www.oceangrown.com in Fort Myers FL and talk to Don. He is very willing to talk, send info, and let you talk to other farmers that have had success.

I am a dealer but I don't care about that part of the business because if you are successful the will be even more referrals in the future.
Robert D Bard


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 Post subject: Re: organic wheat
PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 3:49 am 
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Posts: 277
Robert D Bard wrote:
The water is still almost unpolluted
if you go off the coast far enough. The
average person would not know this but
the currents in the Atlantic Ocean keeps
the pollution up against the shore and not
out at sea. (This is why a lot of kelp is not
healthy) Doesn't this excite you asn make
you want to go to the beach on the Atlantic
coast and the Gulf of Mexico. Gulf is so
polluted they can not take sea wate and we
should not be eating anything from the Gulf.
There goes your Gulf shrimp!!!!!


I gather you would not be crazy about the Administration's plan to establish strings of fish farms parallel to the coasts and 200 miles offshore.

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In theory, theory and practice are the same; in practice, they aren't -- lament of the synthetic lifestyle.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 10:48 pm 
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Posts: 26
Location: Dalhart, Texas
To answer a previous author's post about a green manure crop, my grandfather would plant Hairy Vetche.


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