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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 12:36 am 
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Although I love the idea of organic gardening and living, are there any scientific studies that show this stuff works. I read through the lates DIRT and there is a lot of ridiculous and erroneous information. It makes me wonder if all of this is completely fabricated. Recommending free range chicken eggs is absurd. The only reason an egg is lableled free range is because they cannot call it organic. If you can't call it organic, it is guaranteed to be pumped full of anitibiotics and growth hormone. It doesn't matter if they are free range if they are pumped full of antibiotics. Don't use a microwave? Has there ever been a scientific study that showed any possible harm from a microwave? Please reference it. And I don't mean some chiropractic quack paper. What else is an absurd fabrication in the recommended organic program? Plesae give me something more than "I think this is a good idea."


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 11:46 am 
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I was going to say sorry you are so skeptical but I think challenge is good. The more you discover for yourself, the more convinced you'll become. You don't have to accept everything. I'll probably still heat up leftovers in the 'nuker'.

I find it strange, however, that you'd accept the poisons & adverse chemicals as being OK yet challenge the 'natural' methods.

For just one example, read the info on teflon in everyone's bloodstream! That can't be a good thing! Unless you think now we all have coated arteries & plaque buildup won't be a problem. :)

Patty

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 10:52 am 
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I grow lots of vegetables and herbs and have only used organic means to control pests and to feed the plants. One year, we harvested 1300 tomatoes of various kinds from only 9 plants. I have charts to show exactly how many we picked from each variety every single day. The fact that I never lost a plant to disease or pests tells me that it works.
In fact, once you begin to recognize the beneficial bugs, you begin to let them do the work. I have images of assassin bugs spearing pests that would normally eat the plants. Nature is a wonderful thing.

Think about your own body. Sure you can survive on junk food and chemically processed foods with no real nutritional value (millions do everyday). But I doubt that you would argue that if you eat fresh fruits and vegetable that feed your body properly you will feel better and your immune system would be much stronger. That's exactly what organics do for you lawn, vegetables etc.

I personally do not have to have a golf-course green lawn void of all weeds. Organically maintained lawns may not be the most beautiful and lush, but it is alive with what nature intended (microorganisms, earth worms, beneficial bugs) that help balance out the nutritional value in the soil. Plus you can sleep better at night knowing that you are doing your part by not adding to chemical run off that effects ground water or pollutes that air and soil. Not to mention the effect it may have on you personally down the road. Handling chemicals today could come back to haunt you and your family years down the road in a most unappealing way.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 10:55 am 
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One last thing....

You don't seem like you have done much research on the subject to even post such a question if the only response you've read anywhere is "I think this is a good idea." Check out some books from the library or go online. Howard has lots of information on studies conducted on many topics. Look for yourself, then come back with some questions.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 11:55 am 
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http://www.dirtdoctor.com/org_research.php

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 9:45 pm 
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I am not sure if I can ask this question more clearly but I will try again. Is there any proof that any of this stuff works?
I looked at all of tha articles from the Texas Orgainc Research Forum and found absolutley no research. All it has is articles telling how to do things but no research that proves it works.
I looked at the Britich Medical Journal references. They are from 1936 and it to is a review article that only references one scientific study on monkeys and vitamin deficient diets.
I was unable to find any reference to the dangers of Teflon product use that were vaguely referenced.
Help me out here folks. Is there any science out there or are you all just drinking the Koolaid?


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 7:57 am 
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HI Danny, I believe I have already replied with evidence as to why I believe it works.

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 Post subject: Questions and Answers
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 3:23 pm 
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There are many answers to your questions. Yes, there is plenty of research on many types of organic methods and products. There is no single or even small group of quotes, book or hyperlink that will satisfy your query, however.

Yes, there is plenty of research on the dangers of synthetic chemicals used in pesticides, cleaning products, air fresheners, and a plethora of compounds which have been researched thoroughly and found to have negative, toxic and even lethal effects in humans and other life forms. Read the warnings on their labels. Recall that many products have been taken out of the public market because of negative health effects. Read the research on those products, how they were originally formulated and why they were used until public outcry and scientific backing caused changes that removed them from the US and other markets.

Rachel Carson wrote "Silent Spring" in 1962, a book that ignited the environmental movement and lead to conservation measures that can be seen all over the United States, and in the world. If you have not read it yourself, I encourage you to do so. Remember that Carson was herself a scientist (zoologist and marine biologist) with an excellent education, her masters degree from Johns Hopkins. Other books written by Carson earlier were scientific and literary successes, significantly The Sea Around Us which was made into a documentary that won an Academy Award in 1952. In other words, this is some of the research you want, and a good place to start. Educate yourself with the mountain of material around you.

Awareness of the growing problems leads to more studies. Scientific understanding of bioaccumulation and biomagnification and how they compound the effects of toxins has come over the last several decades. Studies of chemical compounds with genetic mutation qualities and of degraded environments suffering from a lack of clean air and water (for example, the Great Lakes) are all based in public concerns. We have come to realize that everything is connected and releasing poisons into the environment in small amounts from a million sources at large has a negative and devastating effect in the long term. Poisons are not the only way to control diseases and pests. I'm willing to bet that you take trash out of your home (and don't burn it in the living room) and use clean surfaces to eat from, and wash your hands before you eat - those are all "organic" controls. Look at the research on non-organic clothing materials, outgassing from carpets, preservatives and dyes in pre-packed foods and storage methods of various types.

This issue is especially simple at the level of the food you put into your body. , Read the research that shows how much less nutritious foods are when raised by standard methods today compared to organic methods and foods raised 50 years ago. Eggs and meat from free range chickens have higher levels of beneficial fatty acids because of the exercise they get and variety of foods they eat - grass, bugs, seeds, etc. and the higher level of health they enjoy from not living the shortest time possible in the most filthy, horrific conditions. It's not that complicated. Do you want to eat the sick chicken or the healthy one? My choice is pretty clear. You are what you eat. Try it yourself and you will be convinced.

You sound like an intelligent man. That leads me to believe that you can and, if you are truly interested, will locate the research available on the web and in libraries today that will provide to you any and all information you need to convince yourself. You also seem aggressive and a bit sarcastic. While questions are welcome and good for stimulation to in depth analysis and critical thinking, insulting comments do not have a place here or in civilized correspondence.

However, I will answer your last question directly and I'm willing to bet my fellow forum subscribers will agree with me. NO, we do not drink the Kool-Aid because it has dyes in it that affect our nervous systems and glands, artificial sweetners that give us headaches and contribute to the destruction of our joints and generally make us sick by attacking our immune systems. Try some chamomile & hibiscus tea - much healthier, fresher and without the nasty side effects.

We all know we can't completely, 100% avoid the poisons in our environment today. We CAN make a conscious effort to vastly decrease our exposure. We can make educated decisions not to drink beverages loaded with sugars or eat foods that are made up mostly of unhealthy fats, not to use poisonous products and proactive choices to use products without negative effects. Making those choices and changes in our lives has convinced those of us who speak to you now. There is no better teacher than personal experience and that is what we are sharing, or trying to share, with you.

Welcome to our world. Come on in...the water's clean.
Kathe


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 9:29 am 
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DannyK-
Welcome to the forum.
I think Kathe gave you a lot of good information to think about. I hope it helps.
Let me ask a couple of questions. Is there something specific you are dealing with or trying to solve? Nothing wrong with the questions you are asking but I want to try to help you and am wondering if you are just curious or are struggling with a specific problem.
To answer your question more broadly, organic methods are the only practices that are proven. We have thousands of years of historic use. If they didn't work man would no longer exist. Chemical and synthetic methods in agriculture for example have only been around less than 100 years, not long enough to know the total effect of their use.
I invite you to come to my small organic farm where everything is done organically. You will see dairy goats, chickens, turkeys, vegetable garden, bees, orchard, pastures, compost, etc. They all work and are cost effective.
Tony M


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 1:26 pm 
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Perhaps I should define my terms since I don't seem to be getting my question across. When I say "research", I mean a scientific study with published results. The studies should be blinded and controlled and peer reviewed if at all possible. I appreciate the advice that I should surf the internet to look for this research, but, as I have mentioned, I have looked extensivley and can find nothing. So, if anyone can refer me to some research that shows that microwaves are dangerous, free range chickens are healthier, etc, I would be very grateful.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 11:30 pm 
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DannyK, you pose a very interesting question: "Is there any proof any of this works?"
Since this is a forum and site devoted to gardening using natural methods, the real question you are asking is: "Is there any scientific proof that nature works?" Nature works whether science is there to "prove" it or not. If you need scientific proof that a free-range chicken is healthier than one who sits in a cage all day covered in feces, then I don't know where to tell you to look. I doubt the "proof" exists that you are requiring and I think you would still find problems with the results even if it did. I could be wrong, but you seem pretty cynical.
I started an organic program a year ago. My wife was newly pregnant. We were doing work in the yard. I was spreading "weed-n-feed" on the lawn and decided to read the label to see if there may be problems with my wife working outside while I used the product. The warnings were four times as long as the instructions. I decided to end my days of dumping poison on my property--I was familiar with the basics of organics but was not following a program. I found this site and bought a book and so far the program has worked great. The best part about it is that I dont have to worry about harming my family for the sake of a greener lawn or nice garden.
Some of the chemicals and poisons I used in the past worked pretty good. In fact if you applied a scientific study to them, probably would be "proven" more effective than an organic solution in a specific situation. For example, if you used 10% vinegar to kill crabgrass, it would work pretty good, but pouring gasoline on it would work better to kill the crabgrass. Unfortunately it would kill everything else it came into contact with as well. The organic and natural methods look at the big picture to find solutions without the collateral damage of poisons and harsh chemicals that cause further problems.
To answer your question, I dont think the studies you are seeking exist. Scientific studies usually can't take a big picture approach because of all the variables that may exist. They may be able to prove whether a microwave is good or bad for you, but I have no idea where to find out.
Good luck in finding all the answers you are looking for.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 11:18 am 
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Quote:
Organically maintained lawns may not be the most beautiful and lush, but...


sandih, if your fully organic lawn is not the most beautiful and lush in your neighborhood, you're doing something wrong. Visit the lawn care forum and read the FAQ to start.

DannyK, you are going to have to evaluate everything you come across in life. I have a suggestion for you. Find the proof that plowing the soil is better than a "no-till" approach to farming. Everyone does it and has for thousands of years, but where is the scientific proof that plowing is better? Certainly plowing leads to soil erosion, so why would we continue to plow?

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 8:18 pm 
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That's good David. Only problem is that the organiphobes will probably throw it back at you as to where's the research on "no till." You are absolutely right though - the chemical boys have no problem with the lack of research on the things they were taught and spread like parrots.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:14 pm 
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Research, research,research :roll:

How many researches will make you convinced? Everyone (or at least most) on this forum have been doing their own researches. TonyM, Kathe Kitchens, CaptainCompost, Dirt Doctor, Tree Dude ,Tricky Grama, and many others have (to name a few.) Do you expect all of us are stupid people or bunch of con artists. All of the ground crew members have been reseaching. That is why we are having good success. Why don't you do your research?

Look at a forest or any state park. All the trees are healthy and beautiful. I have seen some of the most strikingly beautiful, gigantic live oaks in Florida.
Some were as much as 80 feet in height and and as wide as 120 feet. In NC, I saw handsome white oaks, beautiful sugar maples. None of these trees have been sprayed with pesticides or fed with Miracle Grow. But if you look at most of the new subdivisions, the trees,even with good ones, looks sickly. Some look half dead. Why is that? There is nothing wrong with the trees. It must be what people have been done incorrectly. Mostly ignorantly. So why not do it the way that brings health to the soil and the trees, and to you and your kins and the future? This all what we are doing. It does not hurt.

Now as the Dirt Doctor have said in every show: do your own research.

Tree Dude


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 11:26 pm 
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Having taken a second look at the question, I'm not sure you will be happy with the answer, any answer. For the most part, we're gardeners. The worst thing that could happen is we might lose a couple flowers or maybe veggies. We have tried it and found that it works better than any chemical approach we've tried - and among the several hundred of us on just this list, we have probably tried every combination and permutation of materials from the organic catalog, and even from out chemical days before we tried the organic program. If you are skeptical about your personal garden, just try it. If you are wondering whether to spend the extra few bucks for organic food, then just don't spend it. But if you try it in your own garden and see what happens, you'll be more inclined to listen to what we're telling you.

If you want to talk to someone about raising livestock under organic conditions, please search out Betsy Ross at http://rossfarm.com/and Peggy Sechrist at http://www.homesteadhealthyfoods.com/. I know Betsy tests her beef for CLAs and I think that Peggy does the same with both beef and chicken. But there again, you may not like the answer because they are both selling beef for profit.

Hmmm...I just checked Peggy's link and it's dead. Do an internet search on her name and you'll get a few links you can use in the mean time while their web page is getting back up.

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